Alcohol levels in wine & what happens to tasters when labels are switched

[Jeff Leve]

I just heard that Adam Lee, who makes Siduir Pinot pulled a fast one at the World of Pinot Noir conference Friday. During the "Alcohol and Balance" seminar, Lee, who was one of the panelists opened two of his wines, Siduri Cargasacchi Pinot Noir 13.6% along with Siduri Keefer Ranch Pinot Noir 15.2%.

The well-known wine director for the chain of Michael Mina restaurants has earned a reputation for refusing to stock wines with more than 14% alcohol for sale at the restaurants.

After the talk concluded, Parr told Adam Lee how much he liked the Siduri Cargasacchi Pinot. He added that was going to carry the wine.

At that point, Adam Lee let the cat out of the bag and told Parr that he switched the labels. Parr supposedly took it in stride.

Personally, I think people should taste wine, not labels. Some wines taste out of balance at low alcohol levels and other wines taste hot and jammy at higher levels. It's all about the wine and the winemaker. It's what you find in the bottle that counts.

What does anyone else think about higher levels of alcohol found in wine today?

[Bob Bressler]

I agree that it is all about balance. A well made, balanced wine - even at a higher Alc point - will not taste hot. Which is a good thing since yeasts have gotten so much more efficient that a 24 brix Cabernet will get you over 14% alc.

[Christer Byklum]

I have tasted perfectly balanced 15% alc wines, and very unbalanced even at 12%, so it all comes down to what is in the bottle. I find some of the dry German Rieslings can be out of balance even as low as 12, because there is not enough fruit, especially from the Mosel to balance the wine. But I have yet to taste a balanced 15% alc Pinot. There seems to simply not be enough substance in the grape variety to back up such levels of alcohol.

[Jim Cowan]

Jeff,
While I agree that we should taste what's in the bottle, not on the label, I also think that alcohol content has a great deal to do with longevity - hence, knowing the content is one of the factors one could use in determining how long to cellar a wine.
A friend of mine makes a pinot that, in one vintage, is 16.8% alcohol. Being its pinot, you'd expect to be able to tell but I couldn't and I knew it going in.
But I darn sure wouldn't cellar that wine.
Best, Jim

[Jeff Leve]

Jeff,
While I agree that we should taste what's in the bottle, not on the label, I also think that alcohol content has a great deal to do with longevity - hence, knowing the content is one of the factors one could use in determining how long to cellar a wine.
A friend of mine makes a pinot that, in one vintage, is 16.8% alcohol. Being its pinot, you'd expect to be able to tell but I couldn't and I knew it going in. But I darn sure wouldn't cellar that wine. Best, Jim

Jim... If high alcoholic content stopped a wine from aging, how do so many wines from Chateauneuf du Pape age for decades? The same can be said for some Northern Rhones as well. In fact, my 89, 90, 91 Chapoutier Hermitage wines still seem young. Or are you just talking about California Pinot?

[Hamish Wakes-Miller]

Agree with comments above about balance being crucial.
I tried an incredible savory, stylish and elegant scented Chateauneuf du Pape 2007 made by Marc Kreydenweiss recently. The wine is made under biodynamic principles from a 2 hectare plot of mainly sandy soil that has always been farmed organically and more recently fully biodynamic. There was a freshness and beauty to this wine. I only noticed the 15% alcohol later.....but there were absolutely no prickles of alcohol or 'heat', or imbalance. Maybe the true fresh soil aspect of biodynamic viticulture masked the alcohol. Maybe it was just a very good wine!
Jeff, on your original thread I would be amazed that anyone could differentiate 0.4% alcohol. I can understand a company policy being in place and I have nothing against (and I do not know) Michael Mina Restaurants, but they would be letting a lot of very good wines pass them by if they continue with this slightly myopic attitude.

[Jim Cowan]

Jeff,
I believe that alcohol can be very insidious by changing textures, balance and wine chemistry, particularly over many years in bottle. Further, I am seldom pleased with the flavors and perception of balance when wines are above 15% alcohol.
I am not generally familiar with alcohol levels in the wines you mention and am not a fan of Chapoutier's wines.

All that said, I'm sure my preferences differ from many (perhaps most?) tasters.
And just so you know, if you come to my house for dinner, you're going to have to put up with a lot of wines that may not carry quite the weight you're used to. But then BYOB, is allowed. :)
Best, Jim

[Howard Cooper]

Jeff,

I know that you like older wines with secondary development. How many aged wines have you had that you thought were great with 15-16% alcohol?

[Jeff Leve]

Jeff,

I know that you like older wines with secondary development. How many aged wines have you had that you thought were great with 15-16% alcohol?

Howard, I would be surprised if any of the great, older Chateauneuf du Papes from Rayas, Beaucastel, Pegau, Bonneau were low in alcohol. A quick glance at some of the older bottles in my cellar shows those wines to be 14% on average. I imagine they could be higher. When was the last time you heard of a producer posting a notice of alcohol levels that was lower than the true content on their label? The best of those wines remain stunning mature examples of older wine.

We just had a blind tasting of 97 California Cult wines and at 14 years of age, the best Cabernet Sauvignon and the top Pinot Noirs remain fresh. You can read those notes here. http://thewinecellarinsider.com/forums_new/showthread.php?155-Blind-Tasting-of-Harlan-Screaming-Eagle-Bryant-Colgin-Marcassin-Yquem-amp-more!

2000 Bordeaux might be the first Bordeaux wine vintage with high alcohol levels and all those wines are young, fresh and vibrant. Pavie, a wine I imagine you taste with Kevin from time to time is still a baby.

At least to me, (look how PC I am with my own board :D ) it's not high alcohol that's the problem. It's out of balance wines. Being out of balance can happen with low alcohol as well as high alcohol wines. Do you agree?