Cabernet franc debate

[david shaw]

I have been into Cab Franc since my first Chinon a few moons ago ( Baudry 82 Tasted in Paris in 89:rolleyes:..Where do people sit with Cab Franc in California ? Can it shine ? Are there any plantings around the limestone plateau of Calera..? Does it perform well in Napa ? Is it just to damn hot in most areas ?

[Carrie Bowman]

David,
Personally I really enjoy a good Cab Franc and I've tried several from our area that I would keep around to drink but from a business perspective people (consumers) we've come across are unfamiliar with it, in turn it has not been a successful varietal for us to have on our shelves. I'm not sure if that will change, I hope it does because they're missing out.

[David Pian]

David, just like you, I am an enthusiastic Cab Franc lover as well, definitely with my eyes on Chinon and Bourgueil of the Loire valley. As far as California goes, at least with my limited experience, I haven't run into any one of them that just clicks for me yet... Partly the weather, partly the soil, it's a little bit of everything I guess... For me, Cab Franc is a varietal that really stands out to be an earthy and subtle type, I particularly enjoy the dusty/ash-like character the varietal brings out, very terroir-driven, as close to nature as possible, some of them even biodynamic. California C.F. for me, most of the time, tends to be a little too fruit-forward, which for its cousin Sauvignon may not be a bad thing, but for Franc, in my opinion, is such a turn-off: it kills the lean and subtlety that characterize the varietal, which almost confuses its identity with its cousin. I'd say in the U.S., the only nice Cab Franc I've tasted so far is centered around Finger Lakes, and surprisingly, once in Northern Illinois as well. What do you think?

[Rob Hansult]

One of the reasons Cab Franc is seemingly such an enigma is that it's harder to grow KickAss Franc than Merlot or Cab Sauvignon.
Merlot & C.S. are in fact the easiest Bordeaux varieties to grow, hence part of the reason for their predominance.

. . . and if I have to hear about a herbal streak being part of C.F.'s varietal character once more, I'm gunna Scream! lol

[david shaw]

Carrie, David and Rob..Thanks for your comments. I think it is just too damn hot in most parts of Cali for Cab Franc. I also believe it is a terroir issue and one of PH too. The Cab F and Petit V coming out of North fork on long island is really starting to show promise. Admittedly, marine/ sand deposits not ideal but yielding some ripe fruit profiles and great TA.

A herbal streak in any wine for me is a poorly managed canopy and pyrazine friendly wine. My fave Cab francs..Baudry..Joguet..Domaine Grange aux belles..Philippe Alliet..Thierry Germain..Thierry Michon..Clos de l'echo..Raats family in SA..AND finally Cheval blanc..:)

[Emily Richer]

@Rob - you and I are on the same page... herbal is so indicative of unripe fruit people, not natural beautiful ripe Franc. Carrie, I need to stop in and pour something for you...

I love good Cabernet Franc. I believe you can pour me a glass of Cabernet Franc and I can tell you where it came from. I can't do that with Cabernet Sauvignon; it's good from so many places. The nature of the ancient Cabernet Franc variety was best expressed to me by Rob Sinskey who said at a tasting I organized of California Cabernet Francs, "it's a primitive grape with a narrow comfort zone." How I wish I could talk like that... I use smaller words: It needs to grow in the right place, and there are not many of them. I also like to call Cabernet Franc the "heirloom grape"--like an heirloom tomato, way more work, and worth it for the flavor.

[As an aside, I could be better educated about Chinon. For me, and I apologize in advance to every producer and lover of Chinon, they all taste like a freshly-torn grape leaf in spring. Tightly wound and bright green. I would love enlightenment, and will arrive anywhere within reasonable distance and notice with a gorgeous example of a cabernet franc blend from cooler-climate California if someone wants to host a tasting of Francs, and help me to understand Chinon.]

Don't forget the Cabernet Sauvignon variety of Vitis Vinifera -- a creation of 17th century french vignerons to create a panacea grape that could withstand difficult growing conditions -- is the hardy cross of CABERNET franc and vigorous SAUVIGNON Blanc; the offspring is happy anywhere, the parent grape is very sensitive to place and it needs time to ripen. Time without a heatlamp focused on it.

I'll try not to preach, but this is my view: Like a human, a puppy, or any other developing thing that is alive, there is a pre-programmed timeframe for maturing that grape berry. Can't rush the process. You take a child, I like to say, and feed it lots of sugar (like sun to a grape) and that child does not grow up any faster, or develop the emotional complexity of an adult, grow into his full frame; he merely gets fleshy! Ditto for the cool-climate Bordeaux varietals (as my first winemaking advisor called Merlot and Cabernet Franc). Wait for ripeness in sunny St. Helena California, the hottest part of Napa Valley, and you're gonna get melted molasses. The flesh of that grape is just off the brix chart by the time you get ripe phenolics in the skins. So, two choices, harvest on brix alone like we did for decades 'round here and get greenness, or wait and get super-ripeness.

Of course, some super-rich francs are gorgeous--take Crocker & Starr--lush chocolate-covered-cherry. That's a hedonistic wine. But that style is not what I personally want with dinner (my primary venue for drinking wine). If you ask me, temperate climate is where it's at. You can get cooler climate in napa valley two ways: go up the mountain and grow expensive mountain fruit, and Pride does that very well... or go closer to a large body of water like the San Pablo Bay. I'm in warmer hillside pockets of Carneros, growing Franc and Merlot where they can "see the estuary..." (Can we tell I've been reading about St. Emilion?) I think this spot, sunny enough for ripeness, gives the hangtime that ancient varietal needs without blowing the top off brix... And we get the earthy, mineral thread, pencil-shavings mingling with primary fruit flavors. THAT's what I want with my dinner. Not big oak or the sweetness of 15+% alcohol.

I am curious if similar conditions exist in Washington... would love to taste some fine Franc examples from... Red Mountain?

[Rob Hansult]

David,

Agree the pyrazine/herbal fruit is most likely from an under managed canopy, but can also be in a marginal climate, cooler micro-climate, or just too big a crop in a cooler year.

Heavens, occasionally wine-makers even pick too early! ;) Ha Ha Ha Ha

Don't think Cali being too hot is necessarily the issue, although everything being equal, I might put it on lighter soil, in a slightly less warm area than some of the top Cab Sauvignon. It's growth is slightly more vigorous.

Do have to admit I'm not a huge fan of stand alone CF's usually, but St. Emilion's are my fave Bordeaux, especially some of the heavier endowed with Franc. Angelus has up to 55% or even 60% in some years. Oft times as much or more than Cheval Blanc. Ausone at ~ 50%, & alas now beyond my wallet. Pavie, second in quality only to Ausone IMHO, & occasionally Cheval Blanc. Rolland & Perse have Pavie down to about 20% after incorporating La Clusiere's 6+ acres of Merlot in 2002.

I'm actually a wine-grower & wine-maker on The NOFO of Long Island & agree it can do some pretty nice things with Franc, but still think Merlot hands down is THE red grape here. Love all the other Bordeaux varieties as blenders & possibly stand alone wines in rare cases. I'd add Syrah to this mix as well, & don't think it's blasphemy to blend it with Bordeaux varieties, & have.
Petit Verdot & Carmenere are the 2 most difficult varieties to grow & make stand alone wine from here, & for different reasons.

It's actually glacial deposit that forms the soils, but you're right - mostly sandy, with some lightly stoney/gravelly stuff & with not much more than 20% clay max. depending on the site. South Fork soils are a bit heavier in silt.

All things considered, I'm giving a medium-large Cheers to Franc! ;)

[Rob Hansult]

@Emily - I'm not big on Chinon either, & frankly, my grape of choice in Cali would be Syrah, & possibly Syrah/Bordeaux blends, but since this is a FRANC thread, I'll shut it for now. lol

Definitely agree it is more work, & if you or your program won't allow that, maybe you'd be better off growing C.S. (in Cali), or Merlot where I am on Long Island.

But, hey - that's what makes the world go 'round. Ha Ha Ha

One thing - Cab Sauvignon is descended from Franc & S.B., but was most likely a natural cross, & then just selected by growers. Carmenere & Franc actually predominated in the earliest days of the Bordeaux estates.
They were selecting vines that gave them consistent crops at their skill level, & eventually, over generations the mix of grapes kept changing, favoring one or the other for different reasons.
No reason to go into it more deeply in this thread.

Don't mind a big, even huge one myself, but St Emilion is my grail, not Cali, & anyway I'm sometimes just as happy saving the monster vino for after the meal if it's too big a wine. That also gives me the ready excuse to open some Belgian beer with supper! LOL

Still Cheering Franc! :)

[Emily Richer]

Rob - What do you recommend to taste from NOFO as the best expression of Franc or Franc-heavy BDX blend expressive of that area? Alas, I await my opportunity to try Angeles & Ausone... One day when I come to tour NOFO I'll bring some of my wine and try to coax you and your friends to bring some out of their cellars :)

[Emily Richer]

Rob - Yes, I suspect it was a natural cross (CF x SB = CS). A Napa winemaker trained in St. Emilion (Aaron Pott) gave me the perspective that in 17th Century Bordeaux it was considered the "panacea" grape (C. Sauvignon) hoping to survive what was then (and maybe still now?) frequent flooding south of the river on the "Left Bank." Lore, perhaps, but so I'm told... Thanks for the refinement!

Would love to trade a bottle or two, by the way, of your wine for mine. I'm on 2007: 71% CF - 24% ME - 5% CS, tasting great. I need to finally taste some NOFO, never have. How Napa-centric of me!!
Send me a PM if you're interested!

[Rob Hansult]

Rob - What do you recommend to taste from NOFO as the best expression of Franc or Franc-heavy BDX blend expressive of that area? Alas, I await my opportunity to try Angeles & Ausone... One day when I come to tour NOFO I'll bring some of my wine and try to coax you and your friends to bring some out of their cellars :)
Emily,

Alas but I'm just a bit of a curmudgeonly, non-politically correct supporter of only what I know to be good in the "real" world of my areas wines. There are a few, but not many, sadly.

Bedell has made a few nice reds. The '07 Musee' is a red Bordeaux blend with a bit of Syrah.

Pellegrini made a nice '05 (mostly Merlot) the Pellegrini Vineyards Reserve.

Both are expensive @ ~$75 - Sorry! lol

Both are also Merlot, & Not CF based wines - I just don't know of any I can recommend from here at the moment.

BTW - this is me at my most politically correct about the wines, but very much looking forward to a visit & opening a few! :)

I'll PM you about trading a few bottles. My '06 is the only one labeled so far - a Syrah/Merlot blend (53%/47%)


Cheers!


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